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In a world where even the smallest disagreements can lead to arguments, violence, and even

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death, two brothers tackle the difficult subjects.

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Today we're going to be talking about free speech, specifically occurring at universities.

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This was your idea.

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You want to talk about the event, the article that gave you the push to want to discuss

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this one.

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Truthfully, I had done some of the research since then.

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I can't remember the specifics of the article.

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Maybe you could review it for us.

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It was the Stanford reaction to what was it there was a sort of judge, was invited

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to speak that and event, a bunch of students were there and they were heckling him

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and making it general disruption.

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A faculty, the speaker, the judge, asked a faculty member to if she could intervene or bring

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the situation in a control.

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The faculty member made some sort of comment that was somewhat disparaging towards the

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judge and then Stanford had released a report about that event.

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The school, the university's stance on that whole situation.

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Is that a ring of L?

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Yep.

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I think that type of thing has been happening.

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That's been happening at universities for quite some time.

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I think it does seem to me and to some people that it happens.

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It does happen to people from both sides of the aisle, shall we say, both conservatives and

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liberals, but it does seem to be happening more to conservatives and maybe that has something

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to do with the fact that for some reason, universities have swayed pretty far to left.

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I think they've always leaned and I'm not talking about universities every university and

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I'm not talking about, I'm talking more about the administration and faculty and especially certain

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parts of the faculty seem to be leaning really far left.

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There's a lot of data that I've seen recently that social sciences and certain faculty

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areas of expertise that they're really leaning left and so that is kind of a tendency towards

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other pushing against the other side.

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One of the issues with free speech is everybody's for free speech as long as they're the ones

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that are doing the speaking.

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The difficulty comes when many people say, well, they shouldn't be saying that, but if I agree

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with them, then we don't have a problem with free speech.

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It's a problem when they're saying something that not just that we disagree with, but that

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we disagree with, then we think it's dangerous.

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If most of the faculty and administration is leaning left, then of course what they're going to disagree

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with and think is dangerous is going to be right leaning things.

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Yeah.

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Let me start off by saying this is going to be a subject in which I will not be diametrically

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opposed to you on the basic concept.

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I do agree that there's been a general move to limiting free speech that people tend to get

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recently have been particularly vocal about not wanting opinions that differ from their own at universities

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and universities do tend to be more left leaning.

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My unscientific opinion on that is that I think that people that are liberally minded tend

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to be drawn more towards education, whereas people that are conservative minded tend to go

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more towards law enforcement or business or something.

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I'm not that surprised to that things are a little more liberal at the University of Europe,

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but what's interesting about a lot of this canceling that's been happening at the university

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is that very often it's driven by the students.

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There seemed to be more motivated.

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I did run across a database and it's run by a organization called Fire and Fire stands

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for Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression.

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Their database is a list of not comprehensive lists, but I list of people that have been

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disembited or attempts to disembite speakers that are somewhat controversial, I mean, I'd

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be the right word, two universities.

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Most of the disinvitational attempts have come from the left.

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The one exception where there's more people on the right that are disembiting is that religious

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institutions, but that's a small section of the University population, most of the people

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that are doing the disembiting or attempting to disembite are left leaners.

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When they talk about left or right they're talking about the population that is trying

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to disembite relative to the speaker.

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The speaker could be centered, but if those that are disembiting are coming from the left then

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it's going to be enough disembited from the left.

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That's a funny, I totally agree with all of that.

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It was just funny when you said you picked kind of a conservative group except when you look at

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this really conservative group and they are disembiting people from the left.

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Yeah, that's true.

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Religious.

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But they're, you picked one conservative, brightening group and said, well, they are disembiting

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people.

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If you look just at them then they're going to be disembiting people from the left.

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You're saying that they're the only ones on the right that are disembiting people are the only

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only what.

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More is coming from the left and a lot of those on the right that are doing it are

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conserved religious.

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A large portion of the disembitations of very large portion of disembitions are coming from

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the left.

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The only time I could find where at the institutions where you had a large number of right

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disembitations coming from the right is when you look at religious institutions.

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So if you looked at public schools, you look at secular schools, you look at religious schools

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and they'll seem to be the three categories that I could find in the database.

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In the public schools and in the secular schools it was almost always coming from the left

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and then you look at the religious schools.

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And it was coming from the right.

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What's interesting is when you looked at it from the public schools and secular schools, a huge

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number was coming from the left.

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When you look at the religious schools, it was more coming from the right but not by the same

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degree.

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So they were more coming from the right but they were still a fair number coming from the left

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at the religious schools as well.

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So it is, I think it's fair to say that this is primarily a left problem or at least it's

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occurring because there's a lot more left leaning institutions.

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That's where the problems are occurred.

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Yeah, I can see that.

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Yeah, there's a, that guy that, the founder or one of the founders of the fire organization

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that you were talking about, he wrote a book, it's Greg Lukianath and he wrote a book called

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Well with Jonathan Hate, he wrote a book called The Coddling of the American Mind where

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they talked a lot about this phenomenon that's happening.

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They didn't attack it really from left or right leaning but they talked a lot about some of their

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ideas as to why it would be happening.

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And I think you kind of alluded to it earlier but they said, what's changed, administrations

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have always been kind of against this stuff but students were saying, no, we want free speech,

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we want the opportunity to have dialogue and everything else.

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But in recent years, the students are kind of pushing back and part of it comes from the fact that

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there is this idea of coddling them, there's people get upset and the administration is

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trying to say, well, you shouldn't have to suffer through this.

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We don't want you to have to feel like you're unsafe because somebody is saying something

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that you disagree with, find a safe space or we won't let them come those types of things.

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I don't know exactly how the shift has occurred but it does seem like there is much more concern

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about protecting people from the idea of violence speech or I don't know, just finding

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something that's going to trigger them or hurt them or something like that.

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Yeah.

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I think the safety is a common theme when people talk about this imitation and I think it's

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because people, as you were just saying, it can be used as a way to try and when people are

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worried about actual physical violence, well, obviously they're safe to use a concern.

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But now they've taken that label and they've sort of brought in the concept to say, I feel

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unsafe because I don't like what this person is saying.

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So we sort of change the definition of what it means to feel safe or to feel threatened.

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I think it originated with maybe some of the, maybe for example, some of the racist people

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that were out there where racist some racists might go to a degree of turning towards violence

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but I don't think it's fair to say that all racists would.

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And so someone might say, well, they could turn towards violence and so that makes me feel

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uncomfortable or maybe just an emotional safety that I talk about.

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But I don't really know what their forces and excuse.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I think there's, yeah, it's funny because, yeah, the two aspects that you look at is the stress

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that you put on people are going to force people to kill themselves or to suffer depression

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or something else.

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And so we're trying to protect them from that.

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But I think the other side of it that you've been talking about as well is pretty interesting.

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This idea that we could incite people to violence.

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And what is really, I don't know, enough of an incitement to violence.

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And we've had some discussions, you know, you and I in the past where this has come up.

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One that comes to mind is Elon Musk's comments about your wrath.

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When your wrath, who was the former head of, what was it, health and safety or something

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it?

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At Twitter.

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And then we were talking about, well, the old himself had said some things in 2017 about

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Maga voters, people that voted for Trump or racist and Nazis, things like that.

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And then Trump had made some comments that some people attributed to, well, they said,

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well, this caused that some threats to Joel's safety, maybe even in his life.

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And so he was Elon Musk responsible.

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And was he more responsible because he has more of a following.

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So you can say some things, if nobody's really listening to you, but you can say less things

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if somebody is listening, if you have a ton of followers or a bigger platform shall we say.

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But that is a, and I think that's part of what we're talking about here.

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And maybe we should talk about both those issues.

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One is, well, listen, if somebody says something that you disagree with, how seriously should

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we take that?

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And there's all sorts of examples that we could give.

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Well, if we have some debate on campus or somebody comes to speak to we allow them to speak,

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even if it offends some of the people that some of the students on campus.

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But then, that's different than if somebody were kind of pounding me, they said they found

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out where I lived, or follow me to work, and we're picking me as if I went to

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work because they hated some of the things that I stood for that I'd written online, is that allowed?

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And then, we had these Supreme Court justices or politicians that people were confronting

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them in restaurants and telling them how terrible they were because they disagree with their

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policies.

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And all of these things, there's a lot of gray area there, where first we say, hey, just second

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up, I mean, don't worry about it when somebody says something bad.

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But then, if somebody's following you around, like how much of that do we allow legally?

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And then, morally, or what should we, do we just disagree with people?

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Should we pass laws of that?

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And I think those are, that where it becomes really difficult.

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Absolutely.

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And of course, it's not always a first amendment issue.

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First amendment would only apply to public universities.

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But I do think that looking at the first amendment, the freedom of speech, gives us a good

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framework around what maybe should be allowed or should not be allowed.

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Of course, if you are a private institution, a private university, you can do it every

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one.

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You make your own rules.

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But it does give a good framing of the conversation around freedom of speech.

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And in the first amendment, there are a couple categories that are not protected speech,

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identity, incitement, defamation, fraud, fighting words, true threats, speech that's integral

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to criminal conduct and child pornography.

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And of course, not all that applies to what we're talking about here, but hate speech that

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does not include incitement to violence, defamation, fighting words, or true threats, is protected

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speech under the first amendment.

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So I can speak nasty words about you.

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And as long as I don't do any of those categories.

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But what you're referring to is the incitement to violence versus an implied incitement to violence.

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And then there's something that will take it a little further.

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Even one.

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Well, you said, versus an implied incitement to violence.

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I mean, some people would say, well, that's an incitement to violence.

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And other people would say, no, it's not.

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I mean, exactly.

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But what you had accused and you and others, I guess, had accused Elon Musk of inciting violence

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against Yol Roth.

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And I don't want to split hairs, or maybe I don't want to get too focused on one particular

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instance of it.

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But it is a good example of people he quoted from the doctoral thesis that Yol Roth that was

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published on line, he quoted what he had said.

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So if he's quoting what he said, is that an incitement to violence?

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Now, I looked back and I don't definitely don't want to litigate this one on that podcast right

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now.

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But if you think about the words that Donald Trump said on January 6th, there's not really an

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incitement to violence there.

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Some people read it that way though.

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You know, he said certain things, well, we're going to go show them, we're going to go

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fight and we're going to show them what it means to be brave or something like that.

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You never said, let's go storm the capital, let's break down the doors.

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So some people say, but some people read it a different way and read that speech and say,

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yes, that wasn't incitement to violence or when he saw that it was building a piece should have

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done more to reduce the violence.

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But that is such a tricky place to be because in all of those cases, I think you have reasonable

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people on both sides that are saying, yep, it wasn't incitement or no, it wasn't.

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And so violence is a really, there's a lot of gray area there for sure.

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Somebody kidding, you know, sometimes, you know, there were some politicians for example,

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Maxine Waters in Camila Harris and even Joe Biden that made comments about the riots over

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I forget what year it was 2020 or something when the black lives matter riots and they were

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saying, these people are upset.

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Of course, they're going to do their doing good things.

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They should go, or Maxine Waters said, they should go get in the politicians faces and people would

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say, well, that's an incitement to violence.

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Like he was, no, that's free speech.

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She was just saying that they should go express themselves.

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You know, it's a real gray area there.

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And I think you could find politicians and people on the wall stripes of all political beliefs

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that have said things that some people would say, that was an incitement to violence.

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And other people would say, no, no, that was not.

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That was just them speaking their mind.

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Right.

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And so to bring all that back to universities in particular, the Stanford situation was on the

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one hand, you know, you have a private university where they have a little more freedom.

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But they were saying, you know, that they felt the students and the faculty had behaved poorly

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and behaved badly for their guest speaker.

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And as you and I had briefly discussed, when we decided we were going to talk about this,

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that there has been over the last couple of years a trend towards really limiting what sort of

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speech was showing up on some of these campuses.

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And do you take a look at that tweet that I sent you this morning?

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No, I was interesting.

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Yeah, so the Wayne State University, which I assume is a public university because it's

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a state that a professor there had made some pretty clear violent, is it incitement to violence?

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It kind of sounds like it.

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What do you say?

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I think it's far more admirable to kill a racist, homophobic or transphobic speaker than it is

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to shout them down.

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Now I guess he isn't explicitly saying to do the thing, but you could see if you're saying,

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if you're going to do one, maybe do the other instead, which is pretty strong.

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And so then the university gave the information to the local law enforcement and I guess the

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university is waiting to see how the law enforcement reacts before the university decides how

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they're going to react to it.

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But that's a public university.

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And a public university is more, I guess, should be more strictly following the first amendment

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guidelines than a pipeline.

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Yeah, that's a difficult thing because I'm going to private university.

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There's all these conflicting incentives or motivations or something like that because even

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out of public, yeah, public university, you still have to represent the university.

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So it's not as if, oh, I work at a public university so I could say whatever I want.

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And do they, does the public university say, well, if we have a professor who is a Nazi,

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or are you going to allow that?

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I mean, on the one hand, you, and what becomes so difficult, too, is, you know, many times they,

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at a university, you do want, how would you say this, differing viewpoints.

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You want a heterogeneous faculty administration to some degree to where you can have people

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that espouse different viewpoints.

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So people just don't go to a university and get only one way of looking at the world.

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I think it's really healthy to look at things from different perspectives.

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But yeah, that one, that's a difficult place for them to be.

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For him to say it's admirable to kill a racist to homophobic,

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and racist to homophobic or transphobic speaker.

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I mean, yeah, that to me steps over the line, I don't care if it's a public university or private.

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I think that guy should be, if not suspended or fired, at least severely,

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he'd be reprimanded.

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So I can incitement the violence to me.

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Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that one.

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I would agree.

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But I mean, that's an extreme case.

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I think what I have more problems with is when, yeah, this shouting down, like the first

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article that we looked at, where they had this, a conservative judge, a judge coming.

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And instead of letting him talk and then disputing it or having another speaker come and refute some

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of his points or have some sort of a ravutal people shouting him down.

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And the administrators taking part in that and encouraging them to not let him speak.

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That was more surprising to me.

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I don't, I think there's probably less incitement to violence of the kind that this guy, and

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maybe he wasn't really thinking about he said, I mean, geez, is he really willing to

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go out and kill people who he disagrees with?

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I mean, sometimes people just say stuff.

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I would hope he's not like figuring out ways to try to kill those speakers.

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He certainly hasn't killed anybody yet.

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So it may just be as far as we know, but it may just be talk.

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He's just talking big, like people in the basketball court talking big.

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And then the second that somebody wants to fight like, whoa, whoa, we're just playing a game here.

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But I think there's probably fewer people calling for murders than there are people that

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are in the universities restricting the free flow of ideas and information.

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And that's what is disturbing is that we are getting to the point where we can't have

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this open discussion.

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Yeah.

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And I think you brought really good point, which is that the universities really should

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be trying to expose people to as much information.

295
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It says many different views as possible.

296
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And especially for university that claims to be a liberal art university because one of the things

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that they will require is that you must take courses from a broad range of classes because

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they feel that they well rounded student is a well rounded student is the goal.

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And so if you're going to require people to take a psychology class and a sociology class

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and a math class and a science class, why are you not requiring them to also be exposed to liberal

301
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you points and conservative viewpoints?

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And maybe even you point to disagree with, maybe you point to strongly disagree with and to be

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able to quietly hear those points without just trying to drown out the speaker.

304
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Yeah, I would agree.

305
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And I think there's a number of, you know, the benefits that come from that are just so there's

306
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so many of them.

307
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First of all, if you spend your whole life thinking one way about things, you know, later

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on in life, you're not prepared to defend that viewpoint.

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You might be more easily swayed because, oh, there are people that think a different way.

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You know, it would allow people to further strengthen their own points of view, the way they

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think about things because they've thought about it from all viewpoints.

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I think it also helps people to be more accepting of others because you see, well, oh,

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there are reasonable people that think in ways that are different from me.

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And they make some good points that sometimes, you know, it's not so cut and dry as we, as we,

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if we only see one way, if we only have, see one point of view, we don't realize, well, you

316
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know, maybe my argument is we can some areas or I should be more accepting of exceptions

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to the rule, those types of things.

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So I think it's, you know, it allows people to be more prepared for a society where they

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can accept even those people that disagree with them.

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But if we look at where we are now, people on the right are so angry and hateful towards people

321
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on the left and vice versa, you know, maybe if we could have some of these different viewpoints,

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we could see that.

323
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Man, we're all pretty similar.

324
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And maybe we see things differently, but who knows who's right many times, you know, probably

325
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sometimes you're right and sometimes I am.

326
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And we should be more that, would probably breed some humility in all of this discourse.

327
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Yeah, and I do think that anytime you're hearing some else's opinion, you should try and put

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your own opinion aside and hear it with an open mind.

329
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In a perfect world, that's what happened.

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Most of us are really listening to some else's opinion and trying to figure out which of my

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opinions is going to be able to undermine that opinion.

332
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So even if these students at universities are hearing someone they disagree with, at the very least,

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listen in order to sharpen your own opinion.

334
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And at the very best, actually be receptive to what the opinions that you're hearing because

335
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you might actually learn something and it could be a value to you.

336
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Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything that you said.

337
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I think I think there's not enough willingness to be around people that we disagree with, which

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seems like we've gotten to a state lately where if we disagree, I can't associate with

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you in any way whatsoever.

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Now I can understand that in the extreme, if I'm not saying that a Jewish person should go out

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and live friendly with an antisent, a aggressive antisemite side by side, without any

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fences or anything like that.

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But outside of those extremes, I really think that we have gotten to the point where minor differences

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are now reasons to dissociate with people.

345
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Yeah, yeah, that idea that speech can be violence.

346
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I disagree with that pretty much.

347
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I mean, I guess, I would disagree certainly in the way that it's that people enforce that now.

348
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So for example, somebody coming to speak and then people shouting and shouting him or

349
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heard down so they don't get a chance to present their point of view.

350
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I think is wrong in the university.

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I think there could be times where, hey, you just the university could step in and say, listen,

352
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you can't just be counting this.

353
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If there's a particular student that they disagree with, they're just falling them around and harassing

354
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him or harassment is different than accepting other viewpoints where allowing them a platform

355
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even.

356
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I think almost all viewpoints should be allowed on these universities.

357
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And maybe that's a good way to distinguish between what is allowed and what isn't.

358
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If it's harassment, meaning you're just not leaving somebody alone or not allowing somebody

359
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,960
to speak, that should not be allowed.

360
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:16,800
But allowing somebody to espouse a view point or propose to speak on a view point that you disagree

361
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:24,000
with and even that you consider hateful is not a good and never reason to censor somebody

362
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or not allow them their chance to speak.

363
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:34,320
And to go back to a point that I debated earlier, but kind of fleshing it out a little bit,

364
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if we use racism as an example, there are racists that, of course, are hoping and looking

365
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for reasons to impose violence on other people.

366
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And then from that extreme level, there are degrees of racism.

367
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It goes to just, I don't want to say, I disagree with all racism, I think all racism is bad,

368
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I get it out there.

369
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But at the same time, there are degrees of racism that are not as strong, that are not in

370
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pending violence within a someone's racist perspective.

371
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And so I don't think having a racist view is necessarily an incitement to violence.

372
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Go back to the first amendment, there is no threat in racism in and of itself.

373
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There can be, but it's not intrinsic.

374
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It's not within the racist belief.

375
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And with any other speech that is any other, any other imposed stereotype, any other belief that's

376
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about a particular piece, if I have the belief that if I have the belief that women should

377
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only be in the house that they shouldn't be at working, that is not a violent belief.

378
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Now some women may feel that that's put to restraint on them, but my belief doesn't.

379
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If I somehow act in a way where I impose that belief, then there isn't action.

380
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,760
But the word itself is not actionable.

381
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,400
Yeah, Brian, I was reading in preparation for this.

382
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:26,960
I read about a bit about the ACLU and they seem to have changed course in the last few years.

383
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:34,880
But in the 70s, they, they caught the attention of a lot of people and a lot of people were very

384
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:48,840
angry with them because they defended the right of the neo-nazzi party to, I guess, protest or

385
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:56,880
to have an exhibition in Skokil and Owe.

386
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One of the reasons that they fought for them was because they said, well, listen, even if we disagree

387
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:09,720
with somebody's viewpoint, they still need to be allowed to espouse that viewpoint to speak about

388
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:14,560
it, to put it out there if they want to.

389
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:24,960
What it happened was, and what, this is what makes it so interesting, sorry, I just wanted

390
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:26,960
to let it up.

391
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:38,760
The Nazi party had gone to try to, what would you call it, not protest, but they put on it

392
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,760
to march or whatever on this particular park in Illinois.

393
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:49,520
And the county came back and said, well, you need to get a permit and in order to have the permit,

394
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,760
you need a $250,000 bond.

395
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,160
And they didn't have, they're just a small organization.

396
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,720
And there was another civil rights organization at the same time was trying to do the same thing.

397
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:03,920
So they said, at first they both were marching in the park and then they started to get really

398
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:04,920
upset with each other.

399
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,920
Police often had to be called and they said, we're tired of dealing with this.

400
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,920
Okay, you both needed $250,000 bond.

401
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:15,840
Well, they both went to the ACLU and said, well, first the civil rights people went to the ACLU

402
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:17,200
and said, hey, could you help us with this?

403
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,680
Oh, of course, yeah, this is what we do in the South to make sure the people could vote or

404
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,440
could march for civil rights for black people.

405
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,720
And so they said, yeah, of course, we'll take it.

406
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,480
It will take it all the way to Supreme Court if we need to.

407
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,640
And then the Nazi party came and they said, that's the same thing.

408
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,640
And they're like, well, we're already doing that.

409
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,720
And you can't be added to the same case.

410
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,520
They're not going to do two cases.

411
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:41,800
So just don't worry about it.

412
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,360
We're taking care of it.

413
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:49,880
But then the Nazi party said that they wanted to go all throughout Illinois doing this, marching.

414
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,680
And there was one town that came back and said, nope, we don't want you to be here because they

415
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,480
had a number of Holocaust survivors.

416
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,400
And they were like, this is going to be too painful to the Holocaust survivors.

417
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,000
So they said they were going to go into school.

418
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:04,640
Of course, that kind of triggered them.

419
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,320
And they said, yep, okay, we're going to scokey where these Holocaust survivors are because

420
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:09,880
they don't want us there.

421
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:15,080
And then they had to take the case to the ACLU, the ACLU took it and said, yep, everybody has

422
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:16,080
the right to do this.

423
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,960
Because if everybody doesn't have the right to do it, then people fighting for civil liberties,

424
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:21,560
you don't have the right to do it.

425
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:26,680
In the same way that we protected so that if we have a problem with black people being allowed

426
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,240
to vote or to write on buses or whatever else, we have to make sure that that right to at

427
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:37,440
least march or speak about these things is allowed for everybody.

428
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,760
That right is too important.

429
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,600
So we have to protect the rights of the neo-Nazi's to do this just like we protect the

430
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,200
rights of the civil liberties people to do that.

431
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:53,240
I think that's awesome that the ACLU in the day would go out and defend the right of the

432
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,400
Nazis to be able to march.

433
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,880
Wouldn't it be amazing if they would do that today?

434
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,440
I can't imagine it though.

435
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,440
Maybe it's a process.

436
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:03,440
Yeah.

437
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,800
But so the interesting way to put it's awesome that they would defend the rights of the Nazis.

438
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,200
Just the fact that they would defend the right of all of us.

439
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:17,600
That that right is a universal right in our country because of because of the first amendment.

440
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:18,600
It's not awesome.

441
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,040
I think they probably, it's not awesome in the sense that they probably hated that they had to

442
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:23,280
do it.

443
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,200
And we all probably hate that they have to do it.

444
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:31,160
But we look at the bigger picture and say we have to protect that right even for those

445
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:36,080
viewpoints that are so objectionable like the neo-Nazi's platform.

446
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,400
We have to protect that even for them because that protects it for all of us.

447
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,960
Because we don't know when we're going to be the minority.

448
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,040
We can't just say, well, I disagree with what they say.

449
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,160
So I don't want them to say it.

450
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:49,400
They can say whatever they want.

451
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,600
Now if they're harassing people, we can put some rules in place about that.

452
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,640
But they have the right to speak in public places and say what they want.

453
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:58,640
Yeah.

454
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:03,400
And no one's going to have an argument about whether a mother Teresa should be able to go

455
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:09,320
and speak in public or some great humanitarian or tailor swift.

456
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,320
I'm not saying those two of the same.

457
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,920
I'm not saying great humanitarian leader, like Taylor Swift.

458
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,520
So we can communicate a tearing leader or tailor swift.

459
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:24,520
No one's going to have a real problem with that.

460
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:30,560
But where it challenges us is really where we need to look at and decide what are the rules

461
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:36,480
that it does a rule apply to people we like and people we don't like or just the people we like.

462
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,160
And the important rules are universally applied to everybody.

463
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:42,160
Yeah.

464
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,720
And maybe a good rule of thumb is this kind of what I took from the guy that was leading the

465
00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:52,760
ACLU all those years when they were fighting in Illinois and other places.

466
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:58,520
A good rule of thumb is many times we say, well, we shouldn't allow this person to speak

467
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,040
here and they have this viewpoint.

468
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:05,440
Well, then spin it around and say, well, what if we were restricting my right to take the opposing

469
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:06,440
viewpoint?

470
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:13,560
So if we're talking about gay marriage or civil rights or whatever, if somebody's coming and

471
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,720
we disagree with them because they're talking about trans rights and they, we think that's

472
00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:19,760
hate speech against trans rights or something.

473
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,600
Well, just remember if we try to restrict them from speaking, what if somebody restricted

474
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,040
me from having my viewpoint, which is the opposing viewpoint of that?

475
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,800
Okay, well, then we've got to let them have their saying.

476
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:30,800
Yeah.

477
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,880
And of course, as we said in the beginning, there are special rules when you have a private institution

478
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:41,280
in the same way a business, a business is not beholden to the first amendment.

479
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,360
It's because it's privately owned.

480
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,480
And so the rules that might apply publicly don't always apply privately.

481
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,800
And it's also important that people recognize the difference between the two.

482
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:55,480
The first amendment can be a good guideline in certain situations, but it doesn't apply.

483
00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:00,480
The first amendment applies to the government limiting or supporting speech.

484
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,720
Yeah, and different business is just a handle that differently.

485
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:08,720
I mean, I think you and I've talked about this before.

486
00:36:08,720 --> 00:36:12,760
If you're talking about a restaurant, well, listen, let's not come here and have people at

487
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,920
the different tables arguing about politics.

488
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,160
Just keep it to yourself.

489
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:21,000
We're going to have to actually, but if we're at a university, that's probably a place where

490
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,000
people should be talking about these things.

491
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:28,280
But there's a time in a place even at the university, as long as it's applied fairly and equally.

492
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,520
And then social media, well, that's an open platform.

493
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,320
You can block people if you want.

494
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,520
We're not going to have incitement to violence or hate speech.

495
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:42,800
I do, I think Twitter and all these Facebook and everybody have their rules in place.

496
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:50,120
And they should tend more than other places towards having an opportunity.

497
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,880
It's an open form where there's an opportunity where people, even if we disagree with them, can

498
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,880
put forth their viewpoints.

499
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:58,400
We can block them and not listen to them.

500
00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:59,400
That's fine.

501
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,080
We cannot go to the speech, whatever.

502
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:06,800
But social media should be a place where more than not, we should be allowing, it should be closer

503
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:13,880
to the government's implementation of the first amendment than other places.

504
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,880
Now we're still going to, it's not the same thing.

505
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,640
They're not the federal government.

506
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,040
And they do want to keep people safe or whatever.

507
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,280
But so they can restrict more than maybe other places would.

508
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,480
But it should be closer to an open forum than some of these other situations.

509
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,080
For sure.

510
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,560
And so we're going to leave it there because we're out of time.

511
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,600
Yeah, I thought we have a little more disagreement.

512
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,040
I knew we'd be somewhat aligned, but a little bit more.

513
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,560
Next week, we're going to talk about banning, we're going to stick with the freedom of speech

514
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:53,240
or concept and talk about the banning of books and other material libraries and schools.

515
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:54,240
Okay.

516
00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:55,240
Be prepared.

517
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:56,240
All right.

518
00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:57,240
Let's go.

519
00:37:57,240 --> 00:37:58,240
It's good.

520
00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:00,240
Back to later.

521
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:01,240
See you.

522
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:01,240
Then.

523
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:06,560
We hope you learned something in this episode of Brother Vs.

524
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,560
Brother, a podcast about difficult conversations.

525
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:14,680
We also hope that you enjoyed it enough to subscribe to the podcast.

526
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,080
You can help us by spreading the word.

527
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:22,240
Share this episode on your favorite social media so that others will have an opportunity to experience

528
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:23,560
it as well.

529
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,040
You can also support us by donating through Patreon.

530
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:34,800
This information and more can be found on our website, broconvo.com and on our various social

531
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,280
media accounts.

532
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:36,560
Thank you.

533
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:46,560
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